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sometimes a little

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18 years ago today

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you people who have suckled the generous

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titty of wilfred

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ever since baboon shelter

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and now in front

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of our hallowed water supply section no

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less you repair his kindness

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today philosophy with a very excellent

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james ellis from hermetics

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not the zero i talk of a lot but level

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zero for like

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for you know what the what the people

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online call normies because i don't

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think most people are operating on the

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the level of level one i'm not saying

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i'm above them there's nothing wrong

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with just living in life and going on

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with it but

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but in terms of like every i think you

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know like everyday conversation where

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people are saying things like

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how are you you know how was your

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weekend those dead statements

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that that needs to be like level zero

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wait there's just there's just no

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content

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex karis

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and today we welcome james ellis's and

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that was it okay to out you

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james because man you've been flying

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under the radar for a while

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yeah so i went for i went and i've been

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under the name meta nomad

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for like since 2017 i've been blogging

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and writing under that name uh just

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because i believe

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you know i remember the just about

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remember the old days of the internet

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where forums were full of

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anonymous people with like cool sounding

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names and

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i really miss that and you know

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anonymity

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so that was one reason and also it's

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like just just so you don't

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get the two things crossed and then i

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started doing things like courses where

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i thought

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uh i think just for like legitimization

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i need to

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do the whole real life thing uh real

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life name

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so yeah james ellis is fine is the the

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short answer to that

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well great i mean you know like we're

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just chatting about just a second ago

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there's so many jumping off points for

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folks like you and i have kind of really

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are open to thinking kind of in these uh

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parallel and non-parallel kind of ways

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you know what is

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reality what is your what is anonymity

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anymore and what is identity and all

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that kind of stuff but

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you know we should just jump right into

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this and

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let people know that we're kind of doing

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a swap cast here but i'm primarily

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interviewing you for skeptico and then

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this may go on on your excellent feed

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the

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hermitex podcast which um

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let me pull it up here for people

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because we were just chatting about it a

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minute ago if anyone's watching on

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youtube

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really some great stuff here a lot of uh

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very very insightful deep

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philosophical level three as i like to

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call them kind of conversations

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what's level what sorry what's level

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okay level three first what's level one

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what's level one is like uh science

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so science is is level one is there

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is there science you know and like

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that's one of the survey questions we're

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going to go over and

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what is the meaning of science is

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science obsoleted by

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consciousness uh an understanding of

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consciousness that consciousness is

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fundamental and that maybe

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idealism is a better way of thinking

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about

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what we experience than is scientific

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materialism

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so that's kind of level one and then

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level two is conspiracy really

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which is if you get there and you say

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wow it's really an absurd

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idea to think that consciousness is an

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illusion

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that it doesn't exist i mean it doesn't

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it's an absurd philosophical idea it's

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also an absurd

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scientific idea because it's been

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falsified

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the idea that you're an epiphenomenon of

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the brain really doesn't hold up

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controversy of conspiracy that comes in

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when we think and then level three is

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[\h__\h] man so now that we're there

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you know once we get past those two

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let's chat

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you know but if you can't if you can't

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come to grips with those two

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then to me you can't begin to have the

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level three conversation how does that

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hit you yeah that works i mean i would

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say though that you need to introduce a

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level

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zero not the zero i talk of a lot but

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level zero for like

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for you know what the what the people

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online call normies because i don't

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think most people are operating on the

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the level of level one i'm not saying

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i'm above them there's nothing wrong

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with just living in life and going on

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with it but

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but in terms of like every i think you

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know like everyday conversation where

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people are saying things like

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how are you you know how was your

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weekend those dead statements

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that that needs to be like level zero

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wait there's just there's just no

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content

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and i try to actually veer away from

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them because i actually find it just an

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well first of all

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my orientation on this stuff which i

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don't know why

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but it is the nature of the show is you

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know skeptico

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inquiry to perpetuate doubt i'm always

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thinking

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and it must be annoying to other people

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sometimes but i'm always thinking to the

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counter of that you know

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which on one hand i totally totally

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agree with that and i think you make a

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great point and and i think the way you

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characterize it is

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level zero obviously

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yeah that normies and that is such a

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pejerative term but

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we get it we all get it immediately but

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at the same time

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there's something fundamental about uh

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where we get at the end in level three

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that is almost circular and brings us

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back to level zero

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because it's like really what the [\h__\h]

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are we going to talk about

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we might as well talk about football and

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we might as well talk about the weather

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because having the to to suppose that we

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can have some deep

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deep you know and really uh

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solve these answers to these questions

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uh in any other way than just kind of

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intellectually just kind of stimulating

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ourselves

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i don't know maybe it is back to there's

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a certain

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basic human connection at level zero as

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well

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that i think we gotta acknowledge that

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it's just like hey i'm a human being

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you're a human being

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what the [\h__\h] let's talk about the

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weather and whether it's gonna rain

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today you know what i mean

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what do you think about that yeah i

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agree

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but if someone started talking to me

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about the weather i probably would try

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shy away from it i think that's a

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question of um

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of method though right so like anything

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that you

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anything can be super super interesting

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to talk about

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but it's a question of how you approach

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the subject uh

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in the way you know just saying oh bad

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weather we're having today yeah it is

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it's like those are the kind of

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conversations i actually really struggle

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to do because i don't really see the

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point in them at all but if someone was

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saying like

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you know if we actually began a

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discussion about someone came up to me

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and said

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you know do you believe the astrological

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movements you know make it rain or

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whatever

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i've never really looked into that but

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if they said that i'd be like on board

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straight away

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so i get what you're saying that you can

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actually come back around and it's

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in terms of everyday reality there's a

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certain intuition there which makes

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things super interesting but then this

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is like and i know

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i'm already bringing bringing him in you

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said we were going to mention him

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but john michael grier his whole sort of

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approachable conception of

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occultism where he sort of says like

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once you once you sort of begin to

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understand the the way these things are

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working the way you intuit the world

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things begin to appear to you which you

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you are taught to

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say uh rubbish right so it's like you

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know those those weird feelings

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you get at the time or the idea that in

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a certain room you shouldn't go in there

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or a certain forest to something

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strange or you know you're you're in a

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place and you think something happened

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here

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way back in time that was really awful

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or something along those lines

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and you know that intuition you just you

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just get tortured to

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um suppress it because it's it's not

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you know already jumping into the side

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thing it's not scientific it's not

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logical

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um but that level three to level zero

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connection is you can utilize level

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three to begin to sort of um

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wide set what i'd say is enchant the

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world again there's a lot to probably

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break down a little bit there and i love

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jumping into the middle

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of this stuff because if we lose people

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great you shouldn't have been here

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anyway but

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if you stuck around this long then maybe

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it is worthwhile to go back and

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kind of just tell people where you're

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coming from

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in general and uh i think this idea of

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uh that you talk about so much with uh

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it's accelerationism

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and zero accelerationism i think uh

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capitalism i think you're gonna have a

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an idea that you know certainly is i

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gotta say when i first heard you talking

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about capitalism i'm like

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what the [\h__\h] is he talking about i mean

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as compared versus

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what versus you know compared to what

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there

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is nothing else other than free people

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doing

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what they want to kind of survive

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anything else to me seems absurd but

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man will you talk for an hour on that so

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go ahead okay

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um so yeah so i should have sort of done

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a full interest so for those who don't

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know me

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i run a host mythics podcast which is a

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podcast of

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of philosophy and um fringe subjects

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occultism

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parapsychology weird stuff you know i

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think anyone who's into that stuff sort

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of knows

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the kind of topics um that'll be on that

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i mean i

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target it primarily from a continental

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philosophy angle because that's what my

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education background's in my masters is

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in continental philosophy

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when i was in when i was studying

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continental philosophy tutors were great

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you know um they're great people they

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taught everything that was on our

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curriculum they taught well you know so

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this isn't really

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anything against them at all i still

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speak to them um and i've had had one of

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them on the show

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but in terms of um the way academia

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confronts philosophy

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in those terms um it's very

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disheartening because there's a lot

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going on behind the scenes

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um which is sort of ignored because we

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just like it's almost like we don't have

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time to get into this conversation

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we don't want to go there right and i

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think there's a huge history of

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philosophy in general not specifically

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continental but i think

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more continental because those

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philosophers philosophers are more open

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to it

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um so one example i'll give just to sort

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of cut to the chase on this is that

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schopenhauer who you know super

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super serious philosopher in the canon

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of western philosophy

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um you know the the the will to life

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um we're all stuck between suffering and

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boredom

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um but also incorporated all this

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eastern stuff now the eastern stuff is

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accepted because it's compatible into

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his system

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but not not many people know that

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actually he he said at one point that

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if any of this is worth anything um it's

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because

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telepathy might be existing it might

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exist

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so he's sort of taking these things

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seriously when we say these things

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let's make sure uh because schopenheimer

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is one of those guys who kind of crosses

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over right so a lot of people in the

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kind of consciousness

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interested kind of folks reference him

346
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but then a lot of people

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kind of in the philosophy fields

348
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reference him as well so

349
00:12:02,629 --> 00:12:01,440
what what is he what is he getting at in

350
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terms of uh

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what's he getting at in terms of

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consciousness since that's a

353
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topic that i'm super interested in

354
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in terms of consciousness what i'd say

355
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is that for schopenhauer

356
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i mean i i view everything like and i

357
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mean everything for you the lens of

358
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can't emanuel can

359
00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:21,360
now it's very difficult to get across

360
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:23,040
cancer philosophy in in less than an

361
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hour but i'll try

362
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just get off the the super important bit

363
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which is

364
00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:31,120
the difference between um the phenomenal

365
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and the new manual

366
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or what we would understand as

367
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representation so in terms of our senses

368
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our perception for can as a human

369
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the way in which we the world is

370
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:44,560
presented to us

371
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:47,440
is a re-presentation so when you look at

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something

373
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you're not looking at the real because

374
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it had to be processed by your brain

375
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so it's represented to you so kat's

376
00:12:58,870 --> 00:12:56,240
point is that via our senses

377
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and no point are we dealing with reality

378
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now

379
00:13:06,629 --> 00:13:05,120
many many people after can and there's

380
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:06,639
plenty of spiritualists who've come to

381
00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:07,920
this same conclusion

382
00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:10,560
after camp i just generally always think

383
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:12,160
actually i really do think cam was the

384
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:12,959
first he was

385
00:13:16,949 --> 00:13:14,560
definitely the first to do this

386
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:16,959
rigorously in the critique pure reason

387
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:19,120
which is an extremely tough book but if

388
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you just accept that premise

389
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:23,440
when we move to schopenhauer he then

390
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:25,200
incorporates uh the veil of

391
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:27,519
maya you know which is this eastern

392
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:30,720
concept which i believe comes from the

393
00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:33,920
upanishads i believe i'm not super sure

394
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:35,200
an aryan expert

395
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:37,360
um but the the veil of mara is something

396
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:38,959
that as i understand it could be

397
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:40,560
stripped back so i think the point for

398
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:42,240
chopin harris he doesn't he readily

399
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:44,480
admits that we can never

400
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:46,079
you know we can never actually truly

401
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:48,399
attend to the real because any time that

402
00:13:52,069 --> 00:13:50,480
as a human even if we're on some amazing

403
00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:52,079
drug trip or we think we've broken

404
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:53,120
through

405
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:54,480
you know to the other side whatever that

406
00:13:58,949 --> 00:13:57,120
means we are always in that candy in

407
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,959
doubt that because we are processing it

408
00:14:02,790 --> 00:14:00,720
we can just never be sure it's the real

409
00:14:04,069 --> 00:14:02,800
however i think for schopenhauer there's

410
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:04,079
definitely a possibility of

411
00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:05,120
communication

412
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:07,040
from that other side so he's saying that

413
00:14:12,069 --> 00:14:08,399
none of this really

414
00:14:13,829 --> 00:14:12,079
is important at all unless telepathy

415
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:13,839
is like this possibility and i think

416
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:15,360
what he really means by that is

417
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:16,800
unless there is a possibility of

418
00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:18,720
communication between the

419
00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:22,160
absolute real and us you know unless

420
00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:23,600
we can somehow actually begin to work

421
00:14:25,829 --> 00:14:24,880
out what is on this other side this

422
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:25,839
objective

423
00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:28,880
then what's the point excellent

424
00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:31,360
you know one of the problems i guess i i

425
00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:32,240
struggle with

426
00:14:39,189 --> 00:14:35,279
in terms of um

427
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:39,199
philosophy the way that it's currently

428
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:41,519
practiced a lot of the people that i've

429
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:43,600
listened to on your show

430
00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:47,120
is the they seem to be swamped by

431
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:48,480
scientism

432
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:52,000
so what what you just described is

433
00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:55,279
really just kind of a reworking of kind

434
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:56,399
of yogic

435
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:59,440
vedic kind of philosophy re-injected

436
00:15:02,389 --> 00:15:00,480
reinterpreted

437
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:02,399
in this western philosophical way which

438
00:15:04,870 --> 00:15:03,519
always to me is is

439
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:04,880
interesting on one hand and it's on the

440
00:15:09,030 --> 00:15:07,120
other side like go reference your

441
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:09,040
sources on that you know a little bit

442
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:10,720
because

443
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:13,600
the way that it seems to be swamped is

444
00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:15,360
that the fundamental question seems to

445
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:16,320
be

446
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:19,279
the scientific question of consciousness

447
00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:21,199
and that's why i always start with

448
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:24,399
the absurdity of the claim

449
00:15:28,550 --> 00:15:27,120
that we live in today in terms of and

450
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:28,560
we'll get back to john michael gear

451
00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:30,480
because i think it it

452
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:33,920
it circles back in a way and that's that

453
00:15:37,829 --> 00:15:37,040
okay we live in a science-centered

454
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:37,839
culture

455
00:15:46,629 --> 00:15:44,720
the idea that consciousness is an

456
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:46,639
illusion that you are an epiphenomenon

457
00:15:51,829 --> 00:15:48,639
of your brain is central to that

458
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:51,839
in a way that philosophers haven't

459
00:15:54,150 --> 00:15:52,880
processed

460
00:15:56,949 --> 00:15:54,160
and then a lot of times they're just

461
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:56,959
kind of following along blindly

462
00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:00,399
and making a lot of uh building on that

463
00:16:04,949 --> 00:16:02,480
in ways that they don't even understand

464
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:04,959
to go back in question well

465
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:07,680
you know the basic who am i why am i

466
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:08,560
here

467
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:10,480
kind of nature of consciousness

468
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:12,560
questions so

469
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:14,800
let's turn that into a question because

470
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:16,480
we did this fun survey thing and i'm

471
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:17,600
really glad that

472
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:19,600
we had a good time doing it and looking

473
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:22,320
at each other's answers there is

474
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,880
conscious what is consciousness is

475
00:16:29,189 --> 00:16:26,480
consciousness fundamental

476
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:29,199
is consciousness an epiphenomenon of the

477
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:33,590
can you expand on what you mean by upper

478
00:16:37,509 --> 00:16:35,360
phenomena of the brain

479
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:37,519
just so i know just so i know i'm like

480
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:39,279
i'm coming out at the right angle

481
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:42,160
i mean oh i'm sure you are but you know

482
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:42,639
just for

483
00:16:45,509 --> 00:16:43,839
benefit of people because i always

484
00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:45,519
emphasize this point over and over billy

485
00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:50,639
turd i say the same [\h__\h] over and over

486
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:54,639
but if you walk into uh

487
00:16:58,949 --> 00:16:57,600
what university did you go to there in

488
00:17:04,470 --> 00:16:58,959
staffordshire

489
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:04,480
go in the neuroscience department

490
00:17:07,669 --> 00:17:05,839
they'll tell you exactly what

491
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:07,679
consciousness is they'll pull out all

492
00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:09,280
their machines and they'll measure it

493
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:09,839
and they'll say

494
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:13,199
here it is it's in your brain

495
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:17,280
so consciousness is 100

496
00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:21,760
a product of brain chemistry

497
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:24,799
brain electrical activity it's in your

498
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:26,880
brain man there ain't nothing else

499
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:29,520
outside of that and the the thing that i

500
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:30,400
don't think people

501
00:17:34,549 --> 00:17:33,200
fully grok is the extent and they'll

502
00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:34,559
because what people will say when you

503
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:35,679
confront them with them they go well

504
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:37,440
there's a lot of scientists that

505
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:40,960
don't aren't that you know locked

506
00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:44,160
into that it's like no not really i mean

507
00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:46,000
that is the dogma that is the

508
00:17:49,029 --> 00:17:48,720
doctrine if you're outside of that then

509
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:49,039
you're

510
00:17:54,549 --> 00:17:52,960
because at the end of the day

511
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:54,559
that is the understanding of what

512
00:17:57,669 --> 00:17:56,160
consciousness is consciousness is

513
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:57,679
something that

514
00:18:01,750 --> 00:17:59,520
if you want to get a little bit fancy oh

515
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:01,760
it's an emergent property

516
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:04,960
of the brain but it's still brain based

517
00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:07,280
so what do you think about is that your

518
00:18:13,029 --> 00:18:08,880
understanding of

519
00:18:14,870 --> 00:18:13,039
um i would argue

520
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:14,880
that that isn't an understanding at all

521
00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:16,640
and this is the problem of science and

522
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:17,200
sciences

523
00:18:20,789 --> 00:18:18,880
for me i mean i'd just like to take a

524
00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:20,799
minute to just dwell on the scientism

525
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:21,440
thing

526
00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:24,640
um and that idea that it's this like uh

527
00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:26,480
you know almost leviathan of culture

528
00:18:29,270 --> 00:18:28,160
it's our new god right it's the thing

529
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:29,280
that we go to

530
00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:30,559
to make sure that everything we're doing

531
00:18:34,549 --> 00:18:33,200
is right um

532
00:18:36,070 --> 00:18:34,559
in terms of continental philosophy one

533
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:36,080
of the reasons i actually wanted to

534
00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:37,280
study is because one of its sort of

535
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:38,960
cornerstones which is why it's split

536
00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:40,080
from analytic

537
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:42,640
is that it has this inherent distrust of

538
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:44,559
of science and scientism as

539
00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:46,160
this overarching way to explain the

540
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:47,840
world right

541
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:50,559
because what you've what you how you

542
00:18:53,669 --> 00:18:52,640
outlined the epiphany phenomenon you

543
00:18:55,909 --> 00:18:53,679
know consciousness is the

544
00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:55,919
phenomenon of the brain is the same

545
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:57,520
problem that i run into with science all

546
00:19:01,029 --> 00:18:58,160
the time

547
00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:01,039
which is you know this idea of going

548
00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:02,320
into the neuroscience department and

549
00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:03,200
they say

550
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:06,320
you know x y and z this is this is

551
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:07,360
consciousness or

552
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:09,440
consciousness is in the brain or it's a

553
00:19:12,549 --> 00:19:10,880
an emergent property

554
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:12,559
okay what the hell does that mean well

555
00:19:16,789 --> 00:19:14,320
it's an emerging property

556
00:19:19,270 --> 00:19:16,799
or they'll say you know um x amount of

557
00:19:20,630 --> 00:19:19,280
atoms does this blah blah blah it's okay

558
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:20,640
that's fine but what the hell does it

559
00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:22,960
mean right so what my point is with that

560
00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:25,600
is it's very easy for them to describe

561
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:26,480
anything

562
00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:30,960
recursive language

563
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:33,840
so it's like you know why does a cancer

564
00:19:36,830 --> 00:19:35,520
cell do what it does okay well

565
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:36,840
cancer cell is already your own

566
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:38,799
terminology um it does it because of

567
00:19:41,510 --> 00:19:39,600
this certain

568
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:41,520
mixture of chemicals which is also their

569
00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:43,280
same terminology and the world

570
00:19:47,270 --> 00:19:44,799
the way that they'll justify that doing

571
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:47,280
that is still and you're always within

572
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:50,080
this circle of them explaining things

573
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:51,600
and there's no original point where you

574
00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:53,360
can go there's the objective truth

575
00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:55,120
it's sort of a language game for them it

576
00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:56,880
seems to me and i don't want to bring

577
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:58,960
everything down to language but

578
00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:00,240
what i would say is like i'd give the

579
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:02,559
example of heidegger martin heidegger

580
00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:04,320
um continental philosophy wrote being in

581
00:20:06,549 --> 00:20:05,520
time i'll try not make this too

582
00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:06,559
complicated

583
00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:10,000
but he takes on descartes rene descartes

584
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:12,080
his cogito um you know one of the most

585
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:13,520
probably the most famous

586
00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:15,520
saying in philosophy arguably you know i

587
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:17,440
think therefore i am now

588
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:19,120
this is taught in high schools as this

589
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:21,600
like this this saying which you just say

590
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:22,799
it and it's like

591
00:20:25,029 --> 00:20:24,080
i think therefore i am right this is

592
00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:25,039
sort of the same thing we're talking

593
00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:26,320
about consciousness

594
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:27,440
so you say i think that's where i am and

595
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:29,280
everyone goes oh wow yeah like he's like

596
00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:30,559
like that means anything

597
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:33,039
heidegger sort of steps back and he says

598
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:34,159
what hang on

599
00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:36,320
what the hell is am what the hell is

600
00:20:39,029 --> 00:20:37,440
being right

601
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:39,039
it's just meaningless i think therefore

602
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:41,840
i am okay well you've you've outlined

603
00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:44,559
you know massive massive things there

604
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:45,520
which you haven't taken on

605
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:47,919
what the hell is i what is it to think

606
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:48,960
and what is am

607
00:20:51,909 --> 00:20:50,480
what is it to be and you haven't

608
00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:51,919
actually addressed any of them and

609
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:53,600
heidegger then goes back and addresses

610
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:55,600
dresses being and i think he does does a

611
00:20:58,470 --> 00:20:56,880
good job he begins

612
00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:58,480
so i would actually i would completely

613
00:21:01,350 --> 00:20:59,919
disagree with the scientist argument

614
00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:01,360
what i'd say is i'd go back to kant

615
00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:02,320
again in that

616
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:03,919
the only would the only thing we can

617
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:06,080
assess reality from is what we are

618
00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:07,919
given what works which is this

619
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:09,679
representation we may very well be stuck

620
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:11,200
in something which isn't real

621
00:21:14,470 --> 00:21:13,200
but you have you can't just then go you

622
00:21:15,029 --> 00:21:14,480
can't do the scientist thing and just

623
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:15,039
say

624
00:21:19,270 --> 00:21:17,520
this is consciousness like we have it i

625
00:21:20,710 --> 00:21:19,280
don't they really think

626
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:20,720
you know that i just think that's a bit

627
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:22,400
of a lie you have to begin from

628
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:23,840
i don't think cancer proposition has

629
00:21:26,630 --> 00:21:25,840
been you can't disprove the proposition

630
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:26,640
it's like

631
00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:28,400
how can you prove that this is reality

632
00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:30,240
if we have to process it first

633
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:33,280
you have to begin from that i i so i

634
00:21:39,750 --> 00:21:34,640
fundamentally agree with you

635
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:39,760
right so but the the part that i think

636
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:43,120
you know is is tricky there is that in a

637
00:21:48,149 --> 00:21:45,039
way

638
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:48,159
kant is introducing

639
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:50,559
the miracle that we're trying to avoid

640
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:51,760
in the first place

641
00:21:58,870 --> 00:21:55,600
so it's almost like you know

642
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:58,880
we are fundamentally this experience

643
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:00,080
that's all we know

644
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:02,400
right and even when we get into the

645
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:03,280
that's what i think the

646
00:22:09,669 --> 00:22:07,039
the ai stuff and the you know

647
00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:09,679
simulation hypothesis stuff is so

648
00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:11,919
interesting and my go-to guy on that is

649
00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:12,480
uh

650
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:15,520
eckhart tolle you know the modern got a

651
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:16,480
spiritual teacher

652
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:18,159
where he goes okay and someone pushed

653
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:20,559
him on the simulation theory and he goes

654
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:21,600
okay

655
00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:22,960
so let's say we are living in a

656
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:24,640
simulation

657
00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:27,120
you're still there you're still the one

658
00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:28,400
experiencing that

659
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:31,919
so your experience is

660
00:22:35,430 --> 00:22:34,480
all you can know without invoking

661
00:22:37,669 --> 00:22:35,440
miracles

662
00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:37,679
so to a certain extent the the problem i

663
00:22:42,230 --> 00:22:38,799
have with kant is

664
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:42,240
it's in a way to me it's backdoor

665
00:22:45,669 --> 00:22:43,200
materialism

666
00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:45,679
because it's saying okay you do have

667
00:22:48,230 --> 00:22:46,400
this brain

668
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:48,240
you do have these senses you are

669
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:50,960
interpreting the outside world as it

670
00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:51,760
comes in so

671
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:54,240
aha therefore you're one step away from

672
00:22:58,630 --> 00:22:55,600
your experience

673
00:23:00,710 --> 00:22:58,640
it's like well i

674
00:23:01,909 --> 00:23:00,720
you're assuming now all this kind of

675
00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:01,919
stuff that we want to

676
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:05,440
strip away and say we don't want to

677
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:06,000
assume

678
00:23:12,390 --> 00:23:09,520
so we start with just we are

679
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:12,400
we are here we are aware we are

680
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:13,360
conscious

681
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:16,080
it seems to me that that has to be the

682
00:23:20,950 --> 00:23:17,200
starting point

683
00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:20,960
not that we are interpreting

684
00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:23,280
being here do you get what i mean yeah

685
00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:24,880
no no no i go i get what you mean

686
00:23:29,669 --> 00:23:28,240
um but i would say that you can't ignore

687
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:29,679
that proposition of

688
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:31,200
the fact that your reality is because we

689
00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:33,520
do we our understanding is that we do

690
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:34,720
censor you know the way that we

691
00:23:37,909 --> 00:23:36,799
we apprehend this camp would say the

692
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:37,919
world vision

693
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:41,440
site hearing touch these things are

694
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:43,279
things which have to be processed so

695
00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:44,720
this is an argument that you can't deny

696
00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:45,120
now

697
00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:46,480
with the idea with the materialism

698
00:23:49,669 --> 00:23:48,320
that's a super super interesting idea

699
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:49,679
because

700
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:51,600
kant has been sort of reformulated by

701
00:23:54,149 --> 00:23:53,200
some people to be this sort of radical

702
00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:54,159
materialist

703
00:23:57,269 --> 00:23:55,840
in the sense that we exist within a

704
00:23:59,269 --> 00:23:57,279
materialism

705
00:24:00,549 --> 00:23:59,279
of our own sort of cell we're just sort

706
00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:00,559
of stuck in this

707
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:04,799
this prison of materialism um and

708
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:06,799
the way out of that is to do with time

709
00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:08,640
in the sense that

710
00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:11,840
linear chronic time it just isn't real

711
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:15,520
but it still has to be in time

712
00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:17,440
everything is in time so we have this

713
00:24:21,269 --> 00:24:19,120
linear time which is false

714
00:24:22,789 --> 00:24:21,279
but it's still in time which implies

715
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:22,799
that in some way

716
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:25,760
pure time is getting to us now that

717
00:24:29,669 --> 00:24:28,159
sounds very very complicated

718
00:24:31,430 --> 00:24:29,679
but it's not just complicated but it's

719
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:31,440
kind of self-contradictory right

720
00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:33,360
i mean it's like yeah having like two

721
00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:34,640
times is

722
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:36,880
it's really difficult to think about

723
00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:37,919
yeah

724
00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:40,000
so what do you what do you make of you

725
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:42,400
know the go-to where we always wind up

726
00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:43,840
on this show a lot of times

727
00:24:47,430 --> 00:24:46,640
in terms with people who are kind about

728
00:24:50,070 --> 00:24:47,440
this science

729
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:50,080
bent because you know the first book

730
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:51,840
that i wrote why science is wrong about

731
00:24:57,269 --> 00:24:53,200
almost everything

732
00:24:59,350 --> 00:24:57,279
was really about consciousness

733
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:59,360
and centering around the experiments

734
00:25:02,710 --> 00:25:00,320
that have been done

735
00:25:04,149 --> 00:25:02,720
like what do you make of the quantum

736
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:04,159
physics

737
00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:07,279
you know early 1900s double slit

738
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:08,240
experiment

739
00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:10,880
schrodinger's cat that's usually our

740
00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:11,919
go-to

741
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:15,200
in terms of pointing to a way that that

742
00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:18,720
kind of in a more direct way

743
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:20,880
gets at falsifying the kind of stuff

744
00:25:24,149 --> 00:25:22,720
you're talking about

745
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:24,159
these are these are super super

746
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:25,840
interesting experiments

747
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:30,880
but the people who are doing them

748
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:34,240
aren't using them correctly and what i

749
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:35,360
mean by that is

750
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:36,960
i'm i'm just going to stay on the

751
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:38,320
current line because we're there and

752
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:39,840
it's easy to use

753
00:25:43,269 --> 00:25:41,200
the way in which we do interpret the

754
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:43,279
world that's we are we are then a

755
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:44,000
subject

756
00:25:51,029 --> 00:25:49,840
the interesting thing about these

757
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:51,039
experiments these these quantum

758
00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:52,799
experiments double slit experiment and

759
00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:54,799
one recently which eric wagon mentioned

760
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:56,159
and he didn't seem to

761
00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:57,760
seem to see what i was trying to get at

762
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:00,000
he mentioned a quantum computer

763
00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:03,520
which supposedly produces an effect

764
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:06,320
which affects its cause so it's a retro

765
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:07,760
causal so it's affecting

766
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:09,200
it's affecting something that's

767
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:11,120
beginning right and i said to him i pose

768
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:12,320
this question is

769
00:26:15,909 --> 00:26:14,640
what is the subjectivity of that

770
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:15,919
computer and in what

771
00:26:18,950 --> 00:26:17,760
you know if we were to go into the mind

772
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:18,960
of that computer

773
00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:21,520
in what way is it actually being

774
00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:23,360
presented reality because it's clear to

775
00:26:27,909 --> 00:26:25,600
us that it isn't beholden

776
00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:27,919
to linear time because it can play

777
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:29,520
around with time and he sort of said i

778
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:29,919
don't

779
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:31,919
he he he is assessing it in completely

780
00:26:35,110 --> 00:26:33,200
different way it's completely fine

781
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:35,120
so i was then thinking well we've got

782
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:36,720
this computer which is now

783
00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:39,520
sort of completely out of joint in time

784
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:40,880
because it can play around with what we

785
00:26:44,950 --> 00:26:43,600
understand as the future of the past

786
00:26:46,390 --> 00:26:44,960
and that then i think is the easier way

787
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:46,400
to begin to think about time and

788
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:48,960
consciousness is that

789
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:51,600
our consciousness the way that we we

790
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:53,360
experience reality if that's

791
00:26:59,110 --> 00:26:56,400
how one could define being conscious is

792
00:26:59,990 --> 00:26:59,120
completely trapped within the

793
00:27:02,070 --> 00:27:00,000
progressive

794
00:27:03,269 --> 00:27:02,080
forward mode of time if we were to do

795
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:03,279
anything else it just wouldn't make any

796
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:03,840
sense

797
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:07,120
our consciousness is completely uh like

798
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:08,960
just clutching to that idea of the

799
00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:10,880
future in the past and the present

800
00:27:14,390 --> 00:27:13,679
and so then i think any serious question

801
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:14,400
of consciousness

802
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:16,080
needs to begin to especially when you

803
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:17,360
see things about like this quantum

804
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:18,399
computer is

805
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:21,840
well what is you know what a very simple

806
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:23,200
question would be is

807
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:24,720
why is it that our consciousness

808
00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:27,039
processes time the way we do

809
00:27:31,909 --> 00:27:30,320
um and the the answer to that is very

810
00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:31,919
difficult it's very bleak

811
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:34,559
because i first you know um the the

812
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:36,080
philosopher that i'm about to release a

813
00:27:38,389 --> 00:27:37,120
book on in probably

814
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:38,399
less than a week less than two weeks

815
00:27:41,909 --> 00:27:40,559
nick land calls it the human security

816
00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:41,919
system you know it's a system of

817
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:44,080
security for us because

818
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:47,600
it gives us as almost a a resource for

819
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:48,000
something

820
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:49,840
larger than us it gives us this

821
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:51,520
progression um

822
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:53,039
but the past and the present of the

823
00:27:57,269 --> 00:27:54,720
future

824
00:27:58,789 --> 00:27:57,279
only makes sense in linear time which

825
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:58,799
isn't real so they just do not

826
00:28:02,549 --> 00:28:00,320
exist in that way that's not how time

827
00:28:04,070 --> 00:28:02,559
works um and as soon as

828
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:04,080
you know now we are beginning to play

829
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:05,760
around with things you know eric you

830
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:07,200
know while goes great because you've got

831
00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:08,640
these things like

832
00:28:12,389 --> 00:28:10,480
pre-cognitive dreams which are basically

833
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:12,399
this documented proof that time doesn't

834
00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:13,760
work how we think it is and this quantum

835
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:15,600
computer who's playing around with

836
00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:16,640
you know the past in the future and

837
00:28:19,990 --> 00:28:18,320
putting them you know mixing them up

838
00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:20,000
it's like okay we just need to

839
00:28:23,110 --> 00:28:21,840
and the quantum the double split

840
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:23,120
experiment we just need to

841
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:26,159
accept time does not work how we think

842
00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:27,039
it works

843
00:28:31,350 --> 00:28:30,320
and all it is is if we were to say that

844
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:31,360
humans are

845
00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:32,880
you know let's call linear time just

846
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:35,279
linear and humans are humans

847
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:38,640
humans interpret time linearly

848
00:28:42,149 --> 00:28:41,279
that is it other things might not we

849
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:42,159
can't prove it any

850
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,559
any other way because we're stuck in

851
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:46,320
linear time

852
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:49,200
man again one i don't know if anyone's

853
00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:50,000
gonna be able to follow this

854
00:28:54,070 --> 00:28:51,360
conversation

855
00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:54,080
or number two if they're how many people

856
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,960
are interested in it

857
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:56,640
i've had this i've spoken about this

858
00:28:59,669 --> 00:28:58,399
stuff so much of the time stuff and like

859
00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:59,679
i will admit

860
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:01,440
i every time i try think like how can i

861
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:02,960
make a simple how can i make listen but

862
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,440
and it

863
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:05,760
no no it's right there it's something

864
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:07,440
your brain really really struggles with

865
00:29:10,389 --> 00:29:08,159
and i think that's

866
00:29:13,029 --> 00:29:10,399
actually built in to linear time is that

867
00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:13,039
totally who did you start thinking like

868
00:29:16,389 --> 00:29:14,720
you know the future isn't a thing but

869
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:16,399
because we're stuck in it you just

870
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:19,520
cannot comprehend it totally but there

871
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:21,279
are so many uh tricky

872
00:29:25,029 --> 00:29:23,520
points to that so are you familiar with

873
00:29:25,990 --> 00:29:25,039
the work of dean raiden in his

874
00:29:28,389 --> 00:29:26,000
pre-sentiment

875
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:28,399
experiments i've heard of dean dean

876
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:29,840
rayden but i haven't i haven't read

877
00:29:32,950 --> 00:29:30,640
anything

878
00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:32,960
yeah you'd be really interested because

879
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:33,760
so he's

880
00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:37,200
a parapsychologist right

881
00:29:41,029 --> 00:29:39,039
so with these guys these guys were on

882
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:41,039
this thing kind of from the beginning

883
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:42,480
just kind of taking it from another

884
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:43,200
angle

885
00:29:46,789 --> 00:29:45,760
and uh raiden came up with a great

886
00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:46,799
experiment

887
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:50,080
and he's super smart guy you know

888
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:53,120
phd bell labs uh

889
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:54,960
of illinois all this kind of stuff but

890
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:56,720
now at the ions institute so he said

891
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:57,279
look

892
00:30:00,310 --> 00:29:59,600
i'm going to take an old tried and true

893
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,320
freshman

894
00:30:03,909 --> 00:30:02,480
psychology experiment sit you down in

895
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:03,919
front of a computer screen

896
00:30:10,549 --> 00:30:07,600
and then show you images some of them

897
00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:10,559
really horrific some of them you know

898
00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:11,440
bunnies in a

899
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:14,559
prairie kind of thing and i am going to

900
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:15,200
measure

901
00:30:18,789 --> 00:30:16,720
and this is the pre-sentiment versus

902
00:30:22,149 --> 00:30:18,799
precognition i'm going to measure your

903
00:30:24,789 --> 00:30:22,159
physiological response to those so

904
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:24,799
these have been done like for a long

905
00:30:30,549 --> 00:30:27,279
long time you know

906
00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:30,559
he said let's look at that data more

907
00:30:35,510 --> 00:30:31,840
carefully

908
00:30:38,549 --> 00:30:35,520
and what he found was a response

909
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:38,559
before the image is presented actually

910
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:41,840
before the image is even selected

911
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:44,960
by the computer so boom

912
00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:48,000
so now we're instantly you know

913
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:51,279
precognition pre-sentiment time is

914
00:30:55,590 --> 00:30:54,240
blown out of the water the experiment is

915
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:55,600
replicated

916
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:58,480
over and over again in his lab at this

917
00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:59,600
point it's been

918
00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:01,679
it's been one of the most replicated

919
00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:03,039
experiments

920
00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:06,320
going because he's really driven that

921
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:06,960
home

922
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:10,559
seven labs across the world over 50

923
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:11,360
times

924
00:31:14,549 --> 00:31:13,840
six sigma kind of result you know from

925
00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:14,559
science

926
00:31:19,029 --> 00:31:17,440
statistics it's over the top in terms of

927
00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:19,039
repeatable

928
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:22,880
and it does totally blow away this idea

929
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:25,360
of a linear time as you're talking about

930
00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:26,399
but the the

931
00:31:30,830 --> 00:31:28,799
the interesting thing about that to me

932
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:30,840
there's there's a couple of points

933
00:31:36,549 --> 00:31:34,960
one you know we're still limited like in

934
00:31:39,909 --> 00:31:36,559
the languages you said you said

935
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:39,919
our consciousness right so even that is

936
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:40,480
a question

937
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:43,440
is it our consciousness are we in

938
00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:44,640
consciousness or

939
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:48,880
are we separate from consciousness

940
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:51,440
and some philosophers you know and

941
00:31:55,509 --> 00:31:53,840
bernardo castro dr bernardo castro is

942
00:31:58,789 --> 00:31:55,519
one of our go-to guys here

943
00:32:00,230 --> 00:31:58,799
i think he makes a strong case that

944
00:32:01,990 --> 00:32:00,240
idealism is a better way of

945
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:02,000
understanding this and that we are in

946
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:04,000
consciousness in some way we can't fully

947
00:32:06,389 --> 00:32:04,799
understand

948
00:32:09,909 --> 00:32:06,399
and the other thing i think that that

949
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:09,919
supports that from a data standpoint is

950
00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:12,880
we have all these extended consciousness

951
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:15,120
experiences that we have to deal with

952
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:18,480
near-death experience science hold on

953
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:20,559
this cat is insisting to go out

954
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:24,480
hey there here um near-death experience

955
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:25,200
science uh

956
00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:26,960
you know you're mentioning uh

957
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:28,320
hallucinogenic kind of

958
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:31,039
experiences all those things e.t

959
00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:32,880
experiences

960
00:32:36,870 --> 00:32:35,279
they one characteristic they all have is

961
00:32:39,269 --> 00:32:36,880
they seem to

962
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:39,279
bounce us outside of space and time

963
00:32:41,750 --> 00:32:40,480
right so

964
00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:41,760
what you'll hear from a near-death

965
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:43,840
experience person is

966
00:32:49,269 --> 00:32:46,880
i was there for a week i came back

967
00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:49,279
i had been clinically dead for seven

968
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:50,159
minutes

969
00:32:54,389 --> 00:32:53,120
you know so there's this kind of i've

970
00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:54,399
had one of these experiences i've had a

971
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:56,080
near-death experience but i had one of

972
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:57,279
those sort of weird

973
00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:58,720
temporal experiences when i was younger

974
00:33:01,909 --> 00:33:00,399
someone used to play this game when we

975
00:33:03,269 --> 00:33:01,919
were kids it's probably a very british

976
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:03,279
thing i don't know if they do it anymore

977
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:04,640
when you can get your elbow around

978
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:06,960
someone's neck and if you if you get the

979
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:08,880
the two i don't know what it is they'll

980
00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:10,480
pass out and we used to do that when

981
00:33:14,070 --> 00:33:11,840
we're drunk which is a bad idea

982
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:14,080
don't condone it but you do silly things

983
00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:15,440
with your kids anyway

984
00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:17,200
you know i vividly remember this i got

985
00:33:21,830 --> 00:33:18,799
knocked out and

986
00:33:23,110 --> 00:33:21,840
i my memory then was to walk from my

987
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:23,120
house

988
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:26,240
was a 30 minute walk

989
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:27,600
and that's all i did when i was knocked

990
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:29,200
out was do this walk and then when i got

991
00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:30,640
to the kitchen in the house i laid down

992
00:33:33,909 --> 00:33:31,360
in the position

993
00:33:35,509 --> 00:33:33,919
and woke up but i was 100 but then when

994
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:35,519
i woke up i was like oh god i'm so sorry

995
00:33:37,909 --> 00:33:36,799
i was apologizing because

996
00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:37,919
i thought they'd be worried because i

997
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:39,840
was passed out for like 30 minutes and

998
00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:40,640
they were like what do you mean what do

999
00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:42,000
you mean i said i've been gone ages and

1000
00:33:44,310 --> 00:33:42,640
they said no no

1001
00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:44,320
you like you know five seconds and that

1002
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:46,240
was my first time i said okay time does

1003
00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:47,279
not work

1004
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:53,430
and as you said we don't really know

1005
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:55,360
what to do with that

1006
00:33:58,950 --> 00:33:57,200
yes i mean that's the question where was

1007
00:34:01,029 --> 00:33:58,960
i what what is it and i mean i think

1008
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:01,039
this is what a lot of people who

1009
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:03,600
when i had um oh it's really bad i

1010
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:04,399
forgot his name

1011
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:06,000
we were talking about dmt and he's sort

1012
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,159
of saying that

1013
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:10,320
this is i think this is on a practical

1014
00:34:16,629 --> 00:34:12,320
level one of the best things to do is

1015
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:16,639
find a way to prolong and like stabilize

1016
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:19,760
the the time in these areas because

1017
00:34:23,430 --> 00:34:21,839
they're normally so fleeting and chaotic

1018
00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:23,440
you can only just sort of grasp onto

1019
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:25,119
them and then you're you're drawn back

1020
00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:26,800
so if you can sort of prolong it

1021
00:34:30,389 --> 00:34:28,879
um but i think there's another question

1022
00:34:32,470 --> 00:34:30,399
there as to the

1023
00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:32,480
why is it that our brain or

1024
00:34:37,270 --> 00:34:34,240
consciousness disallows

1025
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:37,280
us to retain what it was we learned in

1026
00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:37,760
that

1027
00:34:42,629 --> 00:34:40,960
who've done acid say

1028
00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:42,639
like they really can't remember anything

1029
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:44,000
of it but

1030
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:45,440
something is retained because they

1031
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:47,440
learned something from it so there's a

1032
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:49,919
question of memory and retention is that

1033
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:52,079
you know in terms of senses you just

1034
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:53,280
can't remember anything it's a

1035
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:54,079
protection

1036
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:55,919
but then other people you know report

1037
00:34:58,870 --> 00:34:57,599
their ocd is suddenly gone and they

1038
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:58,880
don't want to smoke cigarettes anymore

1039
00:35:02,230 --> 00:35:00,880
so there's something has been retained

1040
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:02,240
so i think there's something interesting

1041
00:35:06,870 --> 00:35:04,560
there happening

1042
00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:06,880
are you familiar with the near-death

1043
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:08,880
experience science the work that's been

1044
00:35:12,630 --> 00:35:09,280
done

1045
00:35:14,710 --> 00:35:12,640
there um no i'm not

1046
00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:14,720
not you know there's some of it that

1047
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:16,960
again just kind of swapping stories now

1048
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:17,440
that

1049
00:35:20,950 --> 00:35:19,680
i think you'd find interesting along

1050
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:20,960
these lines that we're talking about and

1051
00:35:24,069 --> 00:35:22,560
the one uh

1052
00:35:27,349 --> 00:35:24,079
particularly jumps to mind i use it all

1053
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:27,359
the time but it's from a british

1054
00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:31,680
researcher phd in nursing

1055
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:34,320
her name is dr penny sartori and she

1056
00:35:37,589 --> 00:35:34,880
worked

1057
00:35:38,630 --> 00:35:37,599
in the critical care unit of a hospital

1058
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:38,640
for a long time and came up with a

1059
00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:39,839
rather novel

1060
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:42,240
experiment that's been replicated since

1061
00:35:47,349 --> 00:35:43,760
where she went to people

1062
00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:47,359
in the cardiac arrest board who had

1063
00:35:50,470 --> 00:35:48,880
experienced cardiac arrest and had

1064
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:50,480
clinically died

1065
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:52,480
and the important thing there is from

1066
00:35:59,589 --> 00:35:58,069
hard problem of consciousness you know

1067
00:36:01,710 --> 00:35:59,599
consciousness is a

1068
00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:01,720
emergent property of the brain

1069
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:02,960
physiologically

1070
00:36:07,190 --> 00:36:05,440
after cardiac arrest we have as good a

1071
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:07,200
handle as we're going to get on what

1072
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:07,839
goes on

1073
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:09,119
you know we've studied that for a long

1074
00:36:12,870 --> 00:36:11,200
time in humans and animals

1075
00:36:14,390 --> 00:36:12,880
and we think we understand what's going

1076
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:14,400
on so it could change but

1077
00:36:17,829 --> 00:36:16,560
we think we understand and we don't

1078
00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:17,839
think it's

1079
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:21,280
your brain is in a state that can create

1080
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:25,359
memories or create these kind of

1081
00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:29,599
radically uh radically conscious

1082
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:31,920
experiences that people report so she

1083
00:36:36,550 --> 00:36:33,119
goes zoom and she says

1084
00:36:37,109 --> 00:36:36,560
okay you just died tell me what you're

1085
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:37,119
in

1086
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:39,200
tell me what your resuscitation was like

1087
00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:40,800
so she's got a group of patients right

1088
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:42,800
so she has 60 patients

1089
00:36:47,190 --> 00:36:45,920
30 of them have had an nde 30 of them

1090
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:47,200
didn't have an nde

1091
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:48,800
she goes to all of them she goes tell me

1092
00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:52,000
what your resuscitation is like

1093
00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:53,760
the ones that didn't have an nde they're

1094
00:37:00,150 --> 00:36:57,040
like lady what are you talking about

1095
00:37:01,990 --> 00:37:00,160
i was dead right nothing black

1096
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:02,000
nada i don't know anything she goes tell

1097
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:03,520
me tell me what you think just tell me

1098
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:04,800
what you think now

1099
00:37:08,069 --> 00:37:06,880
okay well i think this and this and that

1100
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:08,079
like out of the tv

1101
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,960
show she goes to the 30 that had a

1102
00:37:15,829 --> 00:37:12,560
near-death experience

1103
00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:15,839
and they are able to recount it exactly

1104
00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:18,160
they go it's crazy i was immediately i

1105
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:19,440
was shot up and i was

1106
00:37:24,630 --> 00:37:22,160
on the outside corner of the room or i

1107
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:24,640
was right next to the doctor or i was

1108
00:37:27,829 --> 00:37:26,720
two feet under but then i moved above my

1109
00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:27,839
body and

1110
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:29,760
i saw him wheel in this cart and they

1111
00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:31,119
put the paddles on me but the paddles

1112
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:32,160
weren't working and then they were

1113
00:37:35,829 --> 00:37:33,280
frantic and this

1114
00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:35,839
they're going into exact detail of what

1115
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:36,880
happened to them during

1116
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:40,640
resuscitation this

1117
00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:43,119
so we can deal with the time part which

1118
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:44,800
also comes into it because they have all

1119
00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:46,480
these extraordinary experiences and like

1120
00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:47,760
you they come back and go

1121
00:37:51,829 --> 00:37:50,400
you know it was five minutes it wasn't

1122
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:51,839
you know what you think it was like two

1123
00:37:56,870 --> 00:37:53,839
days or whatever

1124
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:56,880
but it also kind of

1125
00:38:01,349 --> 00:38:00,480
challenges us in terms of uh even the

1126
00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:01,359
question

1127
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:05,119
of what we are processing in that

1128
00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:06,400
extended realm

1129
00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:08,720
and what we can bring back because

1130
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:09,839
here's a point

1131
00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:12,720
where people are bringing back very

1132
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:14,560
vivid memories

1133
00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:18,480
but then they're also at times

1134
00:38:21,589 --> 00:38:20,160
kind of echoing exactly what you're

1135
00:38:23,589 --> 00:38:21,599
saying then they go

1136
00:38:24,870 --> 00:38:23,599
because invariable not invariably but

1137
00:38:27,990 --> 00:38:24,880
sometimes then people

1138
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:28,000
transcend to this other you know

1139
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:30,160
super extended reality and they'll say

1140
00:38:35,030 --> 00:38:31,280
things like

1141
00:38:37,030 --> 00:38:35,040
every question before i could even

1142
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:37,040
verbalize it in my head or even think

1143
00:38:41,109 --> 00:38:38,640
about it was answered

1144
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:41,119
and i felt like i knew everything and

1145
00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:42,000
now

1146
00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:45,119
i can't tell you i just tell you

1147
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:47,200
that i have this internal knowing like

1148
00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:48,480
you said and

1149
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:50,240
my life is like this and their life

1150
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:51,520
isn't always better

1151
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:53,920
also they have integration problems much

1152
00:38:59,030 --> 00:38:56,000
higher rate of a divorce

1153
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:59,040
much higher rate of physical problems a

1154
00:39:01,510 --> 00:38:59,760
lot of times

1155
00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:01,520
so there's the people who've really

1156
00:39:05,430 --> 00:39:03,040
studied the near death experience and

1157
00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:05,440
the after effects of it

1158
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:08,880
it it does provide an interesting lens

1159
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:12,160
but it's not easily kind of

1160
00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:15,200
chopped and parsed and that

1161
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:16,960
what do you think of that and then then

1162
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:19,280
we'll talk more about that

1163
00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:25,030
it's tough it's tough i mean i i always

1164
00:39:31,109 --> 00:39:28,400
gonna assess consciousness

1165
00:39:32,310 --> 00:39:31,119
from from what we can use because

1166
00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:32,320
otherwise

1167
00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:33,920
and i don't think that's a scientific

1168
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:35,200
thing i think that's a practical

1169
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:35,760
practical

1170
00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:37,920
thing so i mean this is like going back

1171
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:39,599
to heidegger i think just to give one

1172
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:41,119
example of the way i would begin to

1173
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:43,920
assess is saying things such as like

1174
00:39:46,870 --> 00:39:45,599
between physiology and consciousness i

1175
00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:46,880
think these are sort of unhelpful

1176
00:39:50,150 --> 00:39:48,000
because

1177
00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:50,160
there are already these conceptions that

1178
00:39:54,310 --> 00:39:52,480
are made up by us to explain something

1179
00:39:56,069 --> 00:39:54,320
else external to us so it's like

1180
00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:56,079
we can sort of buy into our own bias and

1181
00:39:58,950 --> 00:39:57,440
i think heidegger is the one one of the

1182
00:40:00,069 --> 00:39:58,960
few philosophers who really really

1183
00:40:02,150 --> 00:40:00,079
really strives

1184
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:02,160
to make sure that he is not falling back

1185
00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:04,319
upon his own biases

1186
00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:05,920
you know and beginning from the absolute

1187
00:40:10,230 --> 00:40:07,680
base of being he's

1188
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:10,240
then defines man as dazzy which is just

1189
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:12,000
uh

1190
00:40:20,069 --> 00:40:18,640
okay it's bad i just can't remember it i

1191
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:20,079
spoke about it just the other day

1192
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:22,319
but the the primary point to remember of

1193
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,280
darzan is that

1194
00:40:27,109 --> 00:40:25,520
heidegger begins by saying okay but one

1195
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:27,119
thing that is primary to us which is

1196
00:40:30,069 --> 00:40:28,880
super super important about

1197
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,079
you could say being or you could say

1198
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:32,880
consciousness is we are beings

1199
00:40:37,910 --> 00:40:36,240
which investigate our own being that is

1200
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:37,920
sort of his starting point is we do know

1201
00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:39,359
this because we're already

1202
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:40,800
what we're doing when we're doing this

1203
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:42,720
is assessing it so what does that say

1204
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:43,920
you know tell us about things and i

1205
00:40:47,349 --> 00:40:45,839
think to begin from there and i think

1206
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:47,359
my problem with the reason i probably

1207
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,480
haven't read a lot of the consciousness

1208
00:40:52,710 --> 00:40:49,760
literature is that

1209
00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:52,720
i think it just does seem to me that so

1210
00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:53,920
many people have had these experiences

1211
00:40:56,630 --> 00:40:54,400
whether

1212
00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:56,640
they've gone elsewhere or done this or

1213
00:41:01,190 --> 00:40:57,520
this or this

1214
00:41:03,430 --> 00:41:01,200
they're so dif they're just so different

1215
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:03,440
um you know the only one i've heard of

1216
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:04,480
is that

1217
00:41:09,750 --> 00:41:08,400
monks who meditate almost

1218
00:41:12,390 --> 00:41:09,760
all of them end up believing in

1219
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:12,400
reincarnation and i think it's in

1220
00:41:15,589 --> 00:41:13,760
we need to pay attention to when there

1221
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:15,599
is a pattern i think that would be the

1222
00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:16,960
important thing is

1223
00:41:23,349 --> 00:41:21,200
uh to try sort of

1224
00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:23,359
okay here's the big problem i think is i

1225
00:41:25,829 --> 00:41:25,040
think that our lang our scientific

1226
00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:25,839
language

1227
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:28,160
is incompatible with where we go and

1228
00:41:31,109 --> 00:41:29,119
i've

1229
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:31,119
you know in a in an episode of hans

1230
00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:33,280
girding he said the absolute can't be

1231
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:34,960
known and i would always take the

1232
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,920
pessimistic view

1233
00:41:40,069 --> 00:41:37,839
some could say it's pessimistic or you

1234
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:40,079
know individuals who have this

1235
00:41:43,589 --> 00:41:42,000
these experiences they get the knowledge

1236
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:43,599
they get it they made they

1237
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:45,520
did the bridge they it's a it's a

1238
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:47,359
subjective intuition to them

1239
00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:50,560
i don't think there's a way where that

1240
00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:53,680
communication is going to be universally

1241
00:41:58,710 --> 00:41:55,040
bridged for us

1242
00:41:59,990 --> 00:41:58,720
um i don't you know i just don't think

1243
00:42:01,910 --> 00:42:00,000
that's that's a thing

1244
00:42:03,349 --> 00:42:01,920
um i know that's sort of a cop-out

1245
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:03,359
answer and a bit depressing but that's

1246
00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:06,000
where i sort of stand on it is that

1247
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:08,480
it's you know that's not going to happen

1248
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:09,599
i don't think we're ever going to be

1249
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:10,640
able to

1250
00:42:14,069 --> 00:42:12,480
um sort of logically explain what's

1251
00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:14,079
going on over there because we don't

1252
00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:14,960
have that

1253
00:42:22,309 --> 00:42:19,119
in our minds to be able to do that

1254
00:42:25,030 --> 00:42:22,319
see therein lies the the

1255
00:42:26,069 --> 00:42:25,040
the problem with i think philosophy to a

1256
00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:26,079
certain extent

1257
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:28,960
no really i mean i know i'm maybe poking

1258
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:30,000
the bear there a little bit

1259
00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:33,920
but it's like ultimately we do have a

1260
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:34,640
need for

1261
00:42:40,230 --> 00:42:37,839
some grounding we most of us

1262
00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:40,240
have a need for some grounding in

1263
00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:41,359
something

1264
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:45,040
that is like science some kind of

1265
00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:48,480
organized systematic empirical way

1266
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:51,520
of measuring and figuring out what those

1267
00:42:55,670 --> 00:42:52,800
measurements mean

1268
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:55,680
you know so i think we like the idea

1269
00:42:59,670 --> 00:42:56,960
that

1270
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:59,680
we can collect a thousand or two

1271
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:00,480
thousand

1272
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:03,520
like dr jeffrey long has near-death

1273
00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:04,560
experiences

1274
00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:06,560
and then catalog them and understand

1275
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:08,960
them and say 96 percent of people that

1276
00:43:13,349 --> 00:43:10,800
come back from a near-death experience

1277
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:13,359
no longer fear dying versus in the

1278
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:14,800
general population

1279
00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:16,720
it's one of the most pronounced fears

1280
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:18,960
they have or

1281
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:21,200
uh you know 76 percent of people see

1282
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:23,280
deceased relatives you know

1283
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:26,880
so we want to measure

1284
00:43:30,069 --> 00:43:29,760
almost by our nature and that draws us

1285
00:43:33,430 --> 00:43:30,079
to

1286
00:43:33,910 --> 00:43:33,440
science so when the philosopher comes

1287
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:33,920
along

1288
00:43:38,309 --> 00:43:36,880
and says there's a certain denial of

1289
00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:38,319
that

1290
00:43:45,270 --> 00:43:43,359
is hard to take because we do want to

1291
00:43:46,630 --> 00:43:45,280
measure even if we understand the

1292
00:43:47,829 --> 00:43:46,640
inadequacies of it

1293
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:47,839
what do you what do you think about that

1294
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:50,560
james um

1295
00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:52,400
i mean i would say that there is

1296
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:54,240
philosophers who have actually tackled

1297
00:43:58,790 --> 00:43:55,280
this problem

1298
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:58,800
um omri bergson specifically is

1299
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:00,560
a philosopher of specifics he always

1300
00:44:04,390 --> 00:44:02,400
wanted to make sure that we were being

1301
00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:04,400
very correct about our assessments and

1302
00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:05,760
this is one of the things i think

1303
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:06,560
committix

1304
00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:09,359
my podcast is trying to bridge is that

1305
00:44:12,230 --> 00:44:10,640
these things are ignored and that

1306
00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:12,240
they're drawn back into this

1307
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:13,839
this sort of suppressive language of

1308
00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:15,359
philosophy where you do need some a more

1309
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:16,800
holistic approach

1310
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:19,599
um and i you the combination between

1311
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:20,960
these things is where

1312
00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:22,079
where it begins to get interesting

1313
00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:24,160
because if you remain just in the

1314
00:44:27,030 --> 00:44:25,760
you know like the consciousness sphere i

1315
00:44:27,589 --> 00:44:27,040
think they get a bit caught up and it's

1316
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:27,599
like well

1317
00:44:31,589 --> 00:44:29,920
you know for instance jung is you know i

1318
00:44:33,190 --> 00:44:31,599
find jung so fascinating because that

1319
00:44:33,990 --> 00:44:33,200
mixture between occultism and someone

1320
00:44:37,030 --> 00:44:34,000
who's

1321
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:37,040
you know really understands human psyche

1322
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:41,680
is you know far more

1323
00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:43,440
dare i say progressive in terms of if

1324
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:45,440
someone truly wants to

1325
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:47,520
you know heal themselves let's say if

1326
00:44:50,309 --> 00:44:48,880
you want to if you want to heal yourself

1327
00:44:52,390 --> 00:44:50,319
and you're just stuck within

1328
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:52,400
the language of psychology well then

1329
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:54,720
you're only you're also stuck with

1330
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:56,800
you know the the the cures that they

1331
00:44:59,510 --> 00:44:58,160
offer which aren't very good because

1332
00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:59,520
you're only remaining in sort of one

1333
00:45:02,069 --> 00:45:00,720
sphere of existence

1334
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,079
and what might be happening to you might

1335
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:04,160
be happening on a far greater level so i

1336
00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:05,920
think that though you know that's why

1337
00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:08,800
um but in terms of sort of tackling head

1338
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:10,480
on why philosophy is sort of stuck like

1339
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:13,520
yeah i can't do that no

1340
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:15,680
and it's not fair to maybe i was but but

1341
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:17,440
uh wait i gotta poke you one more time

1342
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:18,800
before i'll let you go here

1343
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:22,560
and um poke it twice actually okay

1344
00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:25,440
but with uh john michael grier

1345
00:45:29,990 --> 00:45:26,720
fascinating guy

1346
00:45:30,630 --> 00:45:30,000
and you guys and i want to say you guys

1347
00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:30,640
but

1348
00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:33,920
people like him i so admire in so many

1349
00:45:37,349 --> 00:45:34,480
ways

1350
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:37,359
and he has taken this whole dialogue

1351
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:38,880
about the myth of progress

1352
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:42,000
and advanced it in a way that kind of

1353
00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:44,160
brings an undeniable reality to the

1354
00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:45,040
situation

1355
00:45:49,030 --> 00:45:47,119
that that level zero kind of person

1356
00:45:52,309 --> 00:45:49,040
you're talking about

1357
00:45:53,270 --> 00:45:52,319
just needs to to needs to have it jammed

1358
00:45:55,109 --> 00:45:53,280
in their face

1359
00:45:56,550 --> 00:45:55,119
i guess i feel and maybe that's what you

1360
00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:56,560
were saying at the beginning is you just

1361
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:58,319
want to go and go

1362
00:46:03,190 --> 00:46:00,880
[\h__\h] i mean you're just not looking

1363
00:46:05,829 --> 00:46:03,200
at some of the basic

1364
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:05,839
real data that we have on that and and

1365
00:46:09,589 --> 00:46:07,359
that's what i think

1366
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:09,599
to your credit and to you know some of

1367
00:46:13,270 --> 00:46:10,800
the folks you have on the show

1368
00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:13,280
but here's the rub with that john

1369
00:46:17,270 --> 00:46:14,319
michael greer

1370
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:17,280
believes some stuff about global warming

1371
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:18,400
that

1372
00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:22,240
isn't isn't verifiable scientifically

1373
00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:24,319
and worse yet back to my level 2

1374
00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:26,000
conspiracy thing

1375
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:29,920
seems to have been tainted by

1376
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:34,000
um forces that want to push that

1377
00:46:40,069 --> 00:46:37,200
narrative in another way so like when

1378
00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:40,079
al gore 25 years ago stood on that kind

1379
00:46:43,030 --> 00:46:41,520
of thing where he was in the movie and

1380
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:43,040
he raised up and he had a little pointer

1381
00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:43,760
he said

1382
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:45,520
this is where temperatures are and this

1383
00:46:50,870 --> 00:46:47,760
is where co2 is going and

1384
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:50,880
look out well you don't even have to you

1385
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:51,440
can be

1386
00:46:58,150 --> 00:46:54,960
a a level zero kind of person to go ow

1387
00:47:00,069 --> 00:46:58,160
we're 25 years on the oceans have not

1388
00:47:00,950 --> 00:47:00,079
risen which is the only measure we ever

1389
00:47:03,430 --> 00:47:00,960
have to look at

1390
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:03,440
i mean where you live they've measured

1391
00:47:08,309 --> 00:47:04,240
the

1392
00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:08,319
for hundreds of years it's not that

1393
00:47:12,069 --> 00:47:09,760
complicated to do

1394
00:47:13,190 --> 00:47:12,079
it it hasn't risen they go back and they

1395
00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:13,200
can look at the

1396
00:47:16,390 --> 00:47:15,920
ice caps and that they're in the ice

1397
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:16,400
core

1398
00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:18,000
things they do they can go back and look

1399
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:19,760
hundreds of thousands of years

1400
00:47:25,349 --> 00:47:23,040
and they'll tell you long steady

1401
00:47:26,790 --> 00:47:25,359
sea levels for a long time but then you

1402
00:47:30,309 --> 00:47:26,800
know big changes

1403
00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:30,319
also so when when john michael greer

1404
00:47:36,549 --> 00:47:33,760
can't get that right

1405
00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:36,559
that is a red flag for me he can't

1406
00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:38,400
course correct he can't say gee i was

1407
00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:39,119
wrong

1408
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:42,160
about global warming but

1409
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:45,119
here's how i here's how i process that

1410
00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:45,520
now

1411
00:47:49,829 --> 00:47:47,200
but the second thing i want him to say

1412
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:49,839
is i was wrong about global warming

1413
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:50,160
because

1414
00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:53,520
i got bullshitted i got played by

1415
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:56,720
a globalist force that wants to advance

1416
00:48:02,390 --> 00:47:59,839
certain issues that can only be solved

1417
00:48:03,589 --> 00:48:02,400
globally and that whether you like that

1418
00:48:07,589 --> 00:48:03,599
or not whether you

1419
00:48:09,510 --> 00:48:07,599
it is it is definitely a political

1420
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:09,520
kind of thing and the other side of that

1421
00:48:13,589 --> 00:48:11,520
is not like good you know i'm not saying

1422
00:48:14,790 --> 00:48:13,599
the the fascist kind of nationalist

1423
00:48:16,950 --> 00:48:14,800
thing is good

1424
00:48:19,829 --> 00:48:16,960
in any way i'm just saying unless we

1425
00:48:22,710 --> 00:48:19,839
understand those two

1426
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:22,720
forces politically and how they're

1427
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:24,000
corrupting the data

1428
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:25,599
how they're corrupting our ability to

1429
00:48:29,430 --> 00:48:27,200
try and understand the data

1430
00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:29,440
and that is conspiratorial and unless we

1431
00:48:31,829 --> 00:48:31,200
can approach it from a conspiratorial

1432
00:48:34,950 --> 00:48:31,839
standpoint

1433
00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:34,960
we we don't have the beginning thing to

1434
00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:36,319
launch off and make a whole bunch of

1435
00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:36,960
assumptions

1436
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:39,200
about environmentalism and about the

1437
00:48:43,349 --> 00:48:41,119
myth even the myth of progress

1438
00:48:44,710 --> 00:48:43,359
we have to then step back and go okay

1439
00:48:47,349 --> 00:48:44,720
what does that really mean

1440
00:48:47,990 --> 00:48:47,359
if i'm wrong about global warming and

1441
00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:48,000
what does that mean

1442
00:48:51,349 --> 00:48:50,079
about how i was duped about global

1443
00:48:53,109 --> 00:48:51,359
warming

1444
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:53,119
any part of that you want to watch onto

1445
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:54,960
i mean yeah specifically with gria

1446
00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:56,640
i'm not sure he's entirely wrong about

1447
00:48:59,109 --> 00:48:58,079
global warming because he did come at it

1448
00:49:00,710 --> 00:48:59,119
he comes at it

1449
00:49:03,030 --> 00:49:00,720
sort of with the angle of true jury

1450
00:49:04,950 --> 00:49:03,040
which is more of a a respect for nature

1451
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:04,960
as opposed to

1452
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:08,319
the you know i really think a lot of the

1453
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:08,960
argue that

1454
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:10,960
one of my big problems with the climate

1455
00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:12,720
change argument is that it's

1456
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:14,480
just underneath it's a very selfish

1457
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:16,000
argument it's like ownership of the

1458
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:16,800
globe like

1459
00:49:19,829 --> 00:49:18,319
we need to stop it because it's our

1460
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:19,839
earth and it's like well

1461
00:49:23,270 --> 00:49:21,119
even if you don't stop it the earth

1462
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:23,280
keeps going you know whether or not it's

1463
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:24,880
true i'm not going to get into that

1464
00:49:28,309 --> 00:49:27,119
debate but let's just play devil's

1465
00:49:29,589 --> 00:49:28,319
advocate and say that these things are

1466
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:29,599
going to happen that's all going to rise

1467
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:30,079
up and

1468
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:32,400
temperatures you know oceans rise up etc

1469
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:34,319
etc

1470
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:35,680
we're only doing that for our own

1471
00:49:38,630 --> 00:49:37,440
benefit i don't really think it's

1472
00:49:39,990 --> 00:49:38,640
because we care about the earth because

1473
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:40,000
if we care about the earth a lot of the

1474
00:49:43,510 --> 00:49:41,760
things that we need to do to stop

1475
00:49:45,270 --> 00:49:43,520
climate change we would already do so i

1476
00:49:48,230 --> 00:49:45,280
think griez coming at it more

1477
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:48,240
more of a like instead of saying that

1478
00:49:50,710 --> 00:49:49,599
the people who would say

1479
00:49:52,950 --> 00:49:50,720
oh no it's fine to cut down the

1480
00:49:54,950 --> 00:49:52,960
rainforest but make sure you put up some

1481
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:54,960
uh some renewable sources of energy

1482
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:56,000
there instead of

1483
00:49:59,750 --> 00:49:58,480
coal mines i think greer is more along

1484
00:50:01,829 --> 00:49:59,760
the lines of

1485
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:01,839
don't cut down the forest we don't need

1486
00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:03,440
to you're caught up

1487
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:07,440
in a consumerist game you know which

1488
00:50:10,790 --> 00:50:08,880
which you don't need to do at all you

1489
00:50:13,589 --> 00:50:10,800
know we don't need all this modern tech

1490
00:50:14,710 --> 00:50:13,599
so i'd say he's coming at it from from

1491
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:14,720
that direction

1492
00:50:17,589 --> 00:50:16,000
and i guess that's where i'm kind of

1493
00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:17,599
jumping three levels into the

1494
00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:19,280
conversation i gotta quit saying levels

1495
00:50:23,349 --> 00:50:20,640
because i'm gonna confuse people

1496
00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:23,359
but it's like that is the brilliance of

1497
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:25,440
the point that he makes and i think the

1498
00:50:29,349 --> 00:50:26,880
way you articulate it would

1499
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:29,359
articulate it was particularly good and

1500
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:31,200
that's the part that i want to go jam in

1501
00:50:34,390 --> 00:50:32,000
the face

1502
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:34,400
of the level zero people and i also want

1503
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:35,520
to jam the science

1504
00:50:39,510 --> 00:50:37,440
in their face and say you think you're

1505
00:50:40,150 --> 00:50:39,520
driving your prius and you're saving the

1506
00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:40,160
earth

1507
00:50:44,309 --> 00:50:42,880
even with inside the confines of your

1508
00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:44,319
own ridiculous

1509
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:46,480
uh uh the scientific understanding of it

1510
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:48,400
you're not you're generating more co2

1511
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:51,040
with your freaking prius

1512
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:53,440
i love the praise argument but so but

1513
00:50:58,870 --> 00:50:55,440
the real point behind all that

1514
00:51:02,150 --> 00:50:58,880
i think that isn't isn't exposed by

1515
00:51:03,589 --> 00:51:02,160
um a lot of people who are in the kind

1516
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:03,599
of soft sciences

1517
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:05,520
including philosophy but also including

1518
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:07,040
a lot of the other soft sciences

1519
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:09,119
is the point that you made that i'm not

1520
00:51:14,069 --> 00:51:10,559
going to get into the debate

1521
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:14,079
about uh climate change which is

1522
00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:16,000
a psyop in and of itself right because

1523
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:17,680
it's really about global warming

1524
00:51:21,750 --> 00:51:20,240
and they've managed to kind of change

1525
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:21,760
the language which we all know is a

1526
00:51:24,470 --> 00:51:22,720
powerful way

1527
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:24,480
of kind of controlling this is this is

1528
00:51:28,069 --> 00:51:26,240
one thing that's one thing i wanted to

1529
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:28,079
just put in there before we go further

1530
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:31,760
these are what i call um so in um

1531
00:51:35,910 --> 00:51:34,240
linguistic theory i'm i do not master

1532
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:35,920
them i get this completely wrong like so

1533
00:51:39,030 --> 00:51:37,760
maybe a linguist might hear this and go

1534
00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:39,040
god this guy's right off but in

1535
00:51:41,589 --> 00:51:40,079
linguistic theory

1536
00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:41,599
there's an id there's a thing called a

1537
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:43,200
free floating

1538
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:46,079
signifier so signifier is is a is a word

1539
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:47,599
right you signify something you say a

1540
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:48,160
tree

1541
00:51:53,190 --> 00:51:51,599
head however you have these things

1542
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:53,200
called free-floating signifiers which

1543
00:51:56,549 --> 00:51:54,960
are basically signifiers which then

1544
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:56,559
they're just floating they don't they

1545
00:51:59,270 --> 00:51:58,079
mean so much to so many

1546
00:52:00,790 --> 00:51:59,280
so many different things to so many

1547
00:52:01,349 --> 00:52:00,800
different people that they're basically

1548
00:52:04,230 --> 00:52:01,359
meaningless

1549
00:52:06,549 --> 00:52:04,240
post-modernism is a great one or even

1550
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:06,559
modernity is getting in there right

1551
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:09,440
but science is a classic science right

1552
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:10,559
it's exactly what i was going to say

1553
00:52:12,390 --> 00:52:11,280
exactly what i was going to say

1554
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:12,400
especially with all the corona stuff

1555
00:52:15,750 --> 00:52:14,000
going on

1556
00:52:16,870 --> 00:52:15,760
this my point i'm trying to make with

1557
00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:16,880
this is everything that we're talking

1558
00:52:19,109 --> 00:52:18,559
about here is really about control and

1559
00:52:21,910 --> 00:52:19,119
power

1560
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:21,920
because in the chrono you know chrono is

1561
00:52:24,549 --> 00:52:22,720
a great example

1562
00:52:26,549 --> 00:52:24,559
because in the news here in the uk you

1563
00:52:27,589 --> 00:52:26,559
hear things like my favorite one they

1564
00:52:30,069 --> 00:52:27,599
say and they say

1565
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:30,079
every single news cycle without fail i

1566
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:30,960
would actually

1567
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:33,359
put mine or all money i have on to say

1568
00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:35,280
that every single

1569
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:38,640
uh you know daily news broadcast

1570
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:41,680
features it which is experts

1571
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:44,960
the experts the experts agree right

1572
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:47,359
back up 10 steps which experts why are

1573
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:48,720
they experts why do we need these

1574
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:49,680
experts you know and

1575
00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:51,280
they're talking about like coronavirus

1576
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:52,400
spreading whatever you think about

1577
00:52:55,670 --> 00:52:53,280
chronovirus

1578
00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:55,680
the statement the experts have said this

1579
00:52:59,349 --> 00:52:57,200
is absolutely

1580
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:59,359
meaningless same with the scientists

1581
00:53:03,190 --> 00:53:00,240
agree

1582
00:53:03,829 --> 00:53:03,200
or science says right it's absolutely

1583
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:03,839
meaningless

1584
00:53:07,829 --> 00:53:05,440
and these are basically now like this is

1585
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:07,839
just power language because people

1586
00:53:12,069 --> 00:53:10,400
just offload their personal

1587
00:53:14,549 --> 00:53:12,079
responsibility and individual

1588
00:53:15,670 --> 00:53:14,559
responsibility onto these words and they

1589
00:53:16,549 --> 00:53:15,680
understand them as things which will

1590
00:53:18,630 --> 00:53:16,559
keep them safe

1591
00:53:20,870 --> 00:53:18,640
there's sort of you know the the ernest

1592
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:20,880
becker argument of civilization is there

1593
00:53:23,910 --> 00:53:22,559
just to lead us away from the fact that

1594
00:53:25,589 --> 00:53:23,920
we're going to die

1595
00:53:26,950 --> 00:53:25,599
these are also just words to lead us

1596
00:53:28,950 --> 00:53:26,960
away from the fact that

1597
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,960
we are still responsible for our own

1598
00:53:33,030 --> 00:53:30,400
well-being and

1599
00:53:34,230 --> 00:53:33,040
you know and no amount you know which is

1600
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:34,240
why i think people get

1601
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:36,000
people are actually becoming quite ill

1602
00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:37,200
is because they're constantly caught up

1603
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:38,400
in the paradox of

1604
00:53:42,790 --> 00:53:41,119
they they they inherited this idea that

1605
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:42,800
the scientists are right

1606
00:53:47,109 --> 00:53:45,920
but they're consistently wrong um you

1607
00:53:48,870 --> 00:53:47,119
know same with experts

1608
00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:48,880
so you're just sort of caught in this

1609
00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:50,800
absolute hypocrisy but as dillos and

1610
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:52,720
guattari say

1611
00:53:55,990 --> 00:53:55,760
you know um god i could forgot my like

1612
00:53:59,430 --> 00:53:56,000
my

1613
00:54:01,589 --> 00:53:59,440
favorite quote uh nothing ever died of

1614
00:54:03,589 --> 00:54:01,599
contradictions right it just keeps going

1615
00:54:05,589 --> 00:54:03,599
this sort of absurd madness

1616
00:54:07,270 --> 00:54:05,599
just keeps going nothing dies or

1617
00:54:07,990 --> 00:54:07,280
contradictions what but what do you end

1618
00:54:11,030 --> 00:54:08,000
up with

1619
00:54:11,829 --> 00:54:11,040
this strange oppressive mutation where

1620
00:54:13,829 --> 00:54:11,839
you just go

1621
00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:13,839
scientists said it wait so that means we

1622
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:16,160
have to do it yep

1623
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:17,760
well you you know i think we're we're

1624
00:54:19,910 --> 00:54:19,280
running out of time you have a time

1625
00:54:21,430 --> 00:54:19,920
limit

1626
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:21,440
uh i've got about ten more ten more

1627
00:54:25,109 --> 00:54:22,960
minutes okay well

1628
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:25,119
then let's move towards then i will

1629
00:54:30,069 --> 00:54:26,880
throw out the question

1630
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:30,079
because in a way what we're both

1631
00:54:33,910 --> 00:54:32,720
trying to do here and uh there's so many

1632
00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:33,920
points that you just made that i could

1633
00:54:36,870 --> 00:54:35,040
go but

1634
00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:36,880
how do we find tara firma you know how

1635
00:54:43,270 --> 00:54:39,040
do we find the ground that we stand

1636
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:43,280
on from where we can at least

1637
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:45,839
approach some of these topics like when

1638
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:48,160
you throw out the fear of death thing

1639
00:54:51,750 --> 00:54:50,000
in a way i almost feel like you brushed

1640
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:51,760
a brush that brushed over that too

1641
00:54:55,910 --> 00:54:52,400
quickly

1642
00:54:57,270 --> 00:54:55,920
is because it it it is fundamentally

1643
00:54:59,589 --> 00:54:57,280
maybe the only

1644
00:55:01,190 --> 00:54:59,599
thing you know that is really at play

1645
00:55:03,030 --> 00:55:01,200
here and

1646
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:03,040
so we can't go to the next thing and say

1647
00:55:07,030 --> 00:55:04,960
and you know this is another you know no

1648
00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:07,040
it's like that's internally that's what

1649
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:09,359
it's all about that's what the

1650
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:12,400
from the eastern perspective that's

1651
00:55:15,750 --> 00:55:14,960
how we've built all these stars that

1652
00:55:18,309 --> 00:55:15,760
constitute

1653
00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:18,319
our definition of who we are this is the

1654
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:19,920
this is the huge problem of the modern

1655
00:55:24,390 --> 00:55:21,520
day is that

1656
00:55:25,109 --> 00:55:24,400
the only reason things can mean anything

1657
00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:25,119
is when

1658
00:55:29,109 --> 00:55:27,760
is if they're put in a finite framework

1659
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:29,119
which is which is eventually going to

1660
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:29,599
end

1661
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:31,680
what does your family mean if you know

1662
00:55:35,030 --> 00:55:32,960
that one day you're going to die which

1663
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:35,040
then makes you think right so i need to

1664
00:55:38,789 --> 00:55:37,200
you know build up something for them and

1665
00:55:40,069 --> 00:55:38,799
i need to teach these lessons and

1666
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:40,079
keep that going and build a great family

1667
00:55:42,069 --> 00:55:41,680
or you know what does this project mean

1668
00:55:43,430 --> 00:55:42,079
if

1669
00:55:45,349 --> 00:55:43,440
one day i'm not gonna be here or the

1670
00:55:47,750 --> 00:55:45,359
project would end

1671
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:47,760
the problem is it's a schizophrenic

1672
00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:48,400
problem

1673
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:50,160
because the schizophrenic doesn't adhere

1674
00:55:54,789 --> 00:55:51,680
to

1675
00:55:56,549 --> 00:55:54,799
anything like this so the schizophrenic

1676
00:55:57,910 --> 00:55:56,559
goes beyond death because it doesn't

1677
00:55:59,910 --> 00:55:57,920
have anything that's going to die

1678
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:59,920
and this is the problem of of the modern

1679
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:01,280
day is that

1680
00:56:04,390 --> 00:56:02,559
everything that we're in all

1681
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:04,400
institutions the media

1682
00:56:07,510 --> 00:56:06,799
social media everything teaches us to

1683
00:56:09,510 --> 00:56:07,520
live

1684
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:09,520
not in the present in the eastern sense

1685
00:56:11,829 --> 00:56:11,520
but in the what i call the nano present

1686
00:56:14,390 --> 00:56:11,839
right

1687
00:56:14,950 --> 00:56:14,400
just the smallest iteration of a news

1688
00:56:16,230 --> 00:56:14,960
cycle

1689
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:16,240
you know like what we talking about

1690
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:18,000
today this this this

1691
00:56:20,789 --> 00:56:19,520
right you've forgotten about like i

1692
00:56:22,309 --> 00:56:20,799
always list things that people are

1693
00:56:24,390 --> 00:56:22,319
probably you know like brexit

1694
00:56:26,309 --> 00:56:24,400
we're all about brexit i mean it's gone

1695
00:56:28,309 --> 00:56:26,319
or black lives matter before corona

1696
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,319
or you know corona and now it's the

1697
00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:30,400
election and it's like all these things

1698
00:56:34,470 --> 00:56:32,160
are just forgotten in an instant and

1699
00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:34,480
this this really removes

1700
00:56:38,549 --> 00:56:36,240
the position of purpose and meaning for

1701
00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:38,559
man because you don't end up

1702
00:56:41,990 --> 00:56:41,200
you completely forget that you're you're

1703
00:56:44,069 --> 00:56:42,000
you exist

1704
00:56:45,670 --> 00:56:44,079
on a finite time scale you need to

1705
00:56:46,950 --> 00:56:45,680
remember that i think it's important

1706
00:56:48,870 --> 00:56:46,960
super super important to remember that

1707
00:56:52,390 --> 00:56:48,880
but modernity hates

1708
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:52,400
death and suffering it sees them as bugs

1709
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:55,040
not features right of reality it wants

1710
00:56:58,150 --> 00:56:55,599
to

1711
00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:58,160
get rid of them don't disagree with you

1712
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:00,640
on that i just wonder if the problem

1713
00:57:05,190 --> 00:57:03,200
is more fundamental getting back to the

1714
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:05,200
kind of nature of consciousness question

1715
00:57:08,150 --> 00:57:05,760
you know

1716
00:57:10,069 --> 00:57:08,160
one of the spiritual questions two of

1717
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:10,079
the spiritual kind of

1718
00:57:14,470 --> 00:57:12,799
little quips that i like is one you know

1719
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:14,480
the spiritual path is easy for one with

1720
00:57:19,540 --> 00:57:16,480
no preferences

1721
00:57:20,950 --> 00:57:19,550
and the related one to that is um

1722
00:57:23,829 --> 00:57:20,960
[Music]

1723
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:23,839
you know who am i and who have i become

1724
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:24,319
so

1725
00:57:30,789 --> 00:57:27,680
we are all making these assessments

1726
00:57:33,990 --> 00:57:30,799
about what we like what we don't like

1727
00:57:36,870 --> 00:57:34,000
who we are and that has

1728
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,880
created this image of who we are so i

1729
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:38,559
almost feel like when we say

1730
00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:41,520
you know modernity i get it we all

1731
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:42,720
understand it we all

1732
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:45,040
understand the oppressive force but it's

1733
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:45,839
really just

1734
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:50,079
a substitute for the experience that uh

1735
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:51,280
particularly i'm drawn to kind of some

1736
00:57:55,030 --> 00:57:53,200
of the eastern philosophies have kind of

1737
00:57:57,829 --> 00:57:55,040
pointed out all along it's like no

1738
00:57:59,349 --> 00:57:57,839
man it's not really modernity you just

1739
00:58:05,670 --> 00:57:59,359
created this [\h__\h]

1740
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:05,680
attached to one the thoughts that you've

1741
00:58:08,990 --> 00:58:06,960
created but two

1742
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:09,000
the experiences that you've had that you

1743
00:58:12,390 --> 00:58:10,160
misinterpreted

1744
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:12,400
right because you know it's the classic

1745
00:58:15,990 --> 00:58:14,480
you see the stick on the ground on your

1746
00:58:17,430 --> 00:58:16,000
walk and you think it's a snake and then

1747
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:17,440
you recoil because you thought there was

1748
00:58:20,789 --> 00:58:18,640
a snake on the ground

1749
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:20,799
there wasn't a [\h__\h] snake there but

1750
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:22,000
you've processed it

1751
00:58:25,910 --> 00:58:24,000
now as a snake and you're going to have

1752
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:25,920
to unprocess

1753
00:58:30,150 --> 00:58:28,880
that if there is some getting clean that

1754
00:58:33,190 --> 00:58:30,160
that is

1755
00:58:37,510 --> 00:58:33,200
desirable at some point you know so

1756
00:58:40,230 --> 00:58:37,520
is the eastern approach does it kind of

1757
00:58:42,309 --> 00:58:40,240
kind of jump over a lot of these

1758
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:42,319
perceived problems with

1759
00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:45,440
uh modernity and

1760
00:58:49,030 --> 00:58:48,480
met the progress kind of issues i think

1761
00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:49,040
it does

1762
00:58:55,349 --> 00:58:52,160
but i i agree with

1763
00:58:56,710 --> 00:58:55,359
um john michael gray says that people

1764
00:59:00,069 --> 00:58:56,720
should only do drugs

1765
00:59:00,630 --> 00:59:00,079
from their uh their nation you know

1766
00:59:02,870 --> 00:59:00,640
whether

1767
00:59:04,150 --> 00:59:02,880
they're um where they're brought up you

1768
00:59:04,390 --> 00:59:04,160
know from their area of the world so if

1769
00:59:07,670 --> 00:59:04,400
you're

1770
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:07,680
just sort of drink alcohol and you know

1771
00:59:11,430 --> 00:59:09,280
et cetera et cetera

1772
00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:11,440
i think the same is true of spiritual

1773
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:12,640
traditions um

1774
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:15,119
and i of any westerner who i've met

1775
00:59:16,870 --> 00:59:16,400
who's really like oh i'm really into

1776
00:59:20,950 --> 00:59:16,880
buddhism

1777
00:59:23,829 --> 00:59:20,960
and i think that

1778
00:59:25,270 --> 00:59:23,839
that spirituality brushes over all that

1779
00:59:27,510 --> 00:59:25,280
stuff because they're just different

1780
00:59:28,870 --> 00:59:27,520
they are actually quite different in a

1781
00:59:30,470 --> 00:59:28,880
good way in a good way but i think when

1782
00:59:32,470 --> 00:59:30,480
westerners take that on

1783
00:59:34,230 --> 00:59:32,480
they usually bastardize it and find a

1784
00:59:35,109 --> 00:59:34,240
way to have this you know this still

1785
00:59:36,870 --> 00:59:35,119
western like

1786
00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:36,880
oh i'm a buddhist but you're still

1787
00:59:39,430 --> 00:59:38,400
within modernity and it just turns into

1788
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:39,440
this strange thing

1789
00:59:44,470 --> 00:59:42,720
so i would say is if you know you have a

1790
00:59:46,230 --> 00:59:44,480
conclusive spiritual conclusion in mind

1791
00:59:47,109 --> 00:59:46,240
in which you're deconstructing modernity

1792
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:47,119
etc

1793
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:48,559
you can do that from the position of the

1794
00:59:51,990 --> 00:59:50,400
westerner and i think you have to do

1795
00:59:53,910 --> 00:59:52,000
that from the position of the westerner

1796
00:59:55,750 --> 00:59:53,920
because you'll bring instead of

1797
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:55,760
introducing a new language like you are

1798
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:57,359
with buddhism and a new idea

1799
01:00:00,390 --> 00:59:59,280
you begin to deconstruct what it is

1800
01:00:02,069 --> 01:00:00,400
you've built

1801
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:02,079
yourself which i think is more you know

1802
01:00:05,670 --> 01:00:03,599
that's more productive thing to do

1803
01:00:07,510 --> 01:00:05,680
as opposed to just right i've got this

1804
01:00:08,470 --> 01:00:07,520
problem instead of deconstructing the

1805
01:00:10,710 --> 01:00:08,480
problem itself

1806
01:00:12,950 --> 01:00:10,720
with what i've built i'll just throw

1807
01:00:14,710 --> 01:00:12,960
something on top of it it's like no no

1808
01:00:16,470 --> 01:00:14,720
you don't need that other thing you need

1809
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:16,480
to work with you know you need to

1810
01:00:19,510 --> 01:00:18,240
you know why did you build up this idea

1811
01:00:20,390 --> 01:00:19,520
that you need a mortgage or whatever it

1812
01:00:22,549 --> 01:00:20,400
is why do you

1813
01:00:23,589 --> 01:00:22,559
you know feel like you need the super

1814
01:00:27,349 --> 01:00:23,599
duper mattress what

1815
01:00:28,789 --> 01:00:27,359
why is it you know uh societally weird

1816
01:00:30,870 --> 01:00:28,799
to sleep on the floor

1817
01:00:33,430 --> 01:00:30,880
for instance you know what you know and

1818
01:00:37,030 --> 01:00:33,440
begin there

1819
01:00:40,069 --> 01:00:37,040
again our guest has been james ellis the

1820
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:40,079
very very imaginative and

1821
01:00:46,230 --> 01:00:43,440
uh deep deep thinker host of hermetics

1822
01:00:47,430 --> 01:00:46,240
uh podcast and let's pull up his a blog

1823
01:00:48,270 --> 01:00:47,440
there that you're gonna want to check

1824
01:00:52,069 --> 01:00:48,280
out

1825
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:52,079
metanomad so james so awesome talk to

1826
01:00:55,430 --> 01:00:53,680
you and like i said let's make this part

1827
01:01:01,510 --> 01:00:55,440
one of an ongoing dialogue

1828
01:01:05,030 --> 01:01:03,109
thanks again to james ellis for joining

1829
01:01:08,950 --> 01:01:05,040
me today on skeptico

1830
01:01:13,750 --> 01:01:08,960
one question i t up from this interview

1831
01:01:16,789 --> 01:01:13,760
is philosophy swamped by science

1832
01:01:18,470 --> 01:01:16,799
is there inability to dive in

1833
01:01:20,549 --> 01:01:18,480
deep dive the way we've been talking

1834
01:01:23,829 --> 01:01:20,559
about on this show for a while

1835
01:01:25,589 --> 01:01:23,839
does that undermine some of their

1836
01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:25,599
strongest positions

1837
01:01:29,910 --> 01:01:27,680
i don't know james makes a strong case

1838
01:01:32,069 --> 01:01:29,920
for the deep thinking philosopher that

1839
01:01:34,789 --> 01:01:32,079
he is and he's pulling together a lot of

1840
01:01:35,589 --> 01:01:34,799
interesting pieces from a perspective

1841
01:01:38,950 --> 01:01:35,599
that's quite

1842
01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:38,960
unique so maybe that's the counter punch

1843
01:01:40,950 --> 01:01:39,440
to that

1844
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:40,960
let me know your thoughts of course the

1845
01:01:45,349 --> 01:01:42,960
place to do it is the skeptical forum

1846
01:01:47,349 --> 01:01:45,359
come join me over there

1847
01:01:49,430 --> 01:01:47,359
lots of great shows coming up stay with

1848
01:01:51,830 --> 01:01:49,440
me for all of that until next time